HR, We Have A Problem - Stopping the churn of top talent & cultivating new leaders

Desperate to prevent the next wave of resignations at your organization? Need more employees to step up and lead even as they work remotely?

In this episode of HR, We Have A Problem, industry expert and host Kim Seals uncovers powerful solutions to help you stop the churn of top talent and cultivate new leaders.

Joining the HR Huddle is author and TED-X speaker, Dr. Catherine Rymsha to help you retain your highest performers by harnessing the power of Stay Interviews.

Dr. Rymsha, one of the most in-demand global consultants on leadership, is here to shake up the way you think about feedback, challenge who gets to be a “leader,” and how to develop your leadership brand, including:

• Stop forcing team members to become people managers
• How to get buy-in on Stay Interviews
• Why HR must use Stay Interviews within their department first
• Asking crucial questions to top talent before they leave
• Helping your workforce (or yourself) break out of the “trap of mediocrity”
• How to strategically position yourself as a leader
• Getting noticed by the right people at your company
• Motivating young employees to lean into leadership tracks

Ready to implement Stay Interviews or to learn how to develop untapped leaders?

Head over to TheLeadershipDecision.com

Get your copy of The Leadership Decision: Decide to Lead Today on Amazon

Connect with Catherine on LinkedIn


Keep up with the host in real-time:

Kim Seals - @kseals

Sapient Insights Group – @SapientInsights

Transcript

EPISODE 14

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the HR Huddle Podcast, presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource for all things HR. It's time to get in the huddle.

[00:00:19] KS: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the HR Huddle Podcast, and to this episode of HR, We Have a Problem. I'm your host Kim Seals. Today, the great resignation is the hot topic. Recent studies estimate that as of August 2021, 55 percent of people in the workforce plan to look for a new job within the next 12 months and that includes your top talent. 

In this episode, we're breaking down how using stay interviews, and a new approach to leadership may very well help your organization head off the next wave of employee departures, especially amongst your highest performers. Joining me to help you harness the power of feedback, and give you the formula to find and create untapped new leaders at your company. She's an industry expert and lecturer at the University of Massachusetts Lowell, a global consultant and TEDx Speaker, the author of the book, The Leadership Decision: Decided to Lead Today. Welcome to the show, Dr. Catherine Rymsha.

[00:01:16] CR: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here today.

[00:01:19] KS: I'm excited to have you here as well. This is just a topic that I hear about from everybody, like how do we keep our people? What's happening? Is the great resignation real or is it fake news, if you will? I'd love to start there and just get your take on the great resignation. Is this a real phenomenon or is this just media hype?

[00:01:38] CR: It definitely is a real phenomenon. I mean, you see people making new decisions about their lives and their careers. I think, with the recent pandemic that we're still struggling through, the idea of purpose and what am I really doing with my life in my career and being very holistic about that, has really come to the forefront for people. If they have been settling for jobs that weren't quite meeting their expectations or they've decided to reprioritize their lives. We've seen that translate into people switching jobs, making changes. That's where it does come down to not just simply being a hot and sexy, trendy headline, but something that organizations and leaders should be very mindful of and cognizant of, because it puts a lot more pressure on them to be an employer and an employer of choice, compared to what they may have been thoughtful of pre-COVID. 

[00:02:39] KS: Right. COVID has changed a lot for us. Can you believe we're in almost at the end of our second year of this?

[00:02:46] CR: I cannot believe it, to say the least. I cannot.

[00:02:50] KS: It’s unreal. Well, let's dive into some solutions. We'd love to be sure to give our listeners some practical advice for what they can do to solve some of their biggest challenges and given that this is one of them. For our listeners that are new or unsure about the concept of stay interviews, are you game to give them a crash course today?

[00:03:06] CR: I'd love to. Stay interview, for those who are unfamiliar, is a 30 to 60-minute conversation that a manager would have with someone on their team. Ultimately, we see managers or leaders within the corporate sense holding these stay interviews with their high-post, their top talent, their successors, to really ensure that the manager is aligned with what's going to keep that person there and happy and motivated, engaged. You wouldn't want to do this with somebody who you have on your team who's a bit of a dud, and maybe bring the team down. I mean, you'd really want to have this conversation with someone who you find value in and even if that value –

[00:03:46] KS: Is somebody you actually want to stay? 

[00:03:48] CR: Totally, because I have leaders say like, “Well, I've got someone who's underperformance. Should I interview them?” I'm like, “No, why would you ever want to waste your time interviewing them?” I mean, even if you think about, I have a business partner who I worked with, who use to call some people Steady Eddie's. So even if you have somebody in the job, they're performing, they're performing well, they may not have the most grandiose ambitions in the world. But you need them to keep producing to stay productive. Those are people that you can tear out too and having interviews, because even though they're happy and engaged in what they're doing, you want to make sure that they continue to do so.

[00:04:27] KS: Now, there was an article I read a long time ago, that has stuck with me, it's called, ‘Let's Hear It for the B Players’, right? That's what you're talking about, right? Those Steady Eddies, that not everybody can be the A player and you got to have some B players too, to make the world go round and get in your company to be successful. 

[00:04:43] CR: Totally. Those B players don't get enough credit. I mean, so many times companies put together leadership programs or development programs or IDPs or whatever, for their top folks. Yeah, I mean, obviously that makes sense, but they're people who are key to that, do the dirty work or the gritty work that can't be unsung either, and they need something. So to stay interview can be a way to focus on your top performers and your key folks, but hey, give them, the B players, like you said, some love too.

[00:05:13] KS: Yeah. Who should be leading the stay interviews? What's the right group of people in your organization actually conduct these interviews?

[00:05:20] CR: It's funny that you asked that. I was doing a session earlier today with some mid-level leaders. We were talking about retention and we were talking about pay and career conversations, and where do you find the balance? One of the leaders said to me, which kills me every time is like, “Well, this is an HR thing. This is an HR problem.” As the manager, I don't have any accountability in this, which drives me absolutely berserk, because the first thing of course, I did was snap back at them, absolutely, this is not an HR problem. This is an organization problem. This is a manager problem. 

This is not something that you're going to blame on those folks in the HR departments and saying like, “Hey, this is your mess to clean up.” Because it's not. I mean, as leaders, you represent the organization to your people. So, when your people begin to leave, yeah, they might be finding another offer somewhere else down the road. But I mean, you represent the company to these people, and either they want to stay and keep working for you. That has such a huge part of your hand and the accountability there, that you should be the one taking the lead, to make sure that you're understanding what your people want directly, and not throwing it in HR lap.

[00:06:34] KS: For sure, definitely. So what I'm hearing you say is that leaders are the ones, the people managers, the ones that should be conducting the stay interviews?

[00:06:42] CR: Yes. I think HR should be there to partner and to coach and to say, “Hey, leader. Hey, manager. Here's how you do an effective stay interview and here's what this looks like. Here's how we can support you in any takeaways that you gain from said interview.” But they're your people and you should be the one taking the responsibility and making the decision to be accountable in keeping them and doing what you need too, to make sure that they're fulfilled within their roles.

[00:07:10] KS: Is there a role for HR to play in talking to the leaders after the stay interviews are done, to synthesize what's been heard, look for key themes across these interviews, across different managers? How does that piece work?

[00:07:24] CR: There is a level of account – accountability is really a key word here. But there is a level of accountability for yes, HR to support the manager and holding the interview, the manager to hold the interview with those on their team who they think are most relevant to hold the session with. But then there is closing the gap or regrouping with HR to say, “Hey here's some of the findings that I'm hearing.” Some of these are easy wins for me to act on as the manager. Some of these are easy wins for HR to act on. But here's some other thoughts that HR and senior leadership may want to give consideration too. 

If you pair some of that qualitative feedback with any engagement, survey data, turnover data, any other metrics, then that gives HR even a clearer picture on where there might be some forgive the expression, but some low hanging fruit that they can act on sooner rather than later. That's going to help retain talent and then what they can strategize out over the next three to six months a year plus and making some shifts that's going to really help to keep and attract talent that's going to be beneficial for the long run. 

[00:08:35] KS: Can you give us some idea of the top few questions that you need to be sure or included in every stay interview? What are these leaders asking the employees?

[00:08:43] CR: The one that I've heard, and that I absolutely love is, tell me about a great day at work? I like that one, because it gives the employee an opportunity to tell a story about a time at work where they felt they were doing their best work that they felt they were really their true selves, let's say or really feeling when they got home at the end of the day that they were really energized and able to share that with family or friends or pets, whatever the situation may be. I love that one, but then I think, the flip side of that too, is like, tell me about a bad day at work?

I think those just can be two really simple questions that can give the manager a lot of insight on what's engaging that person, what's motivating them to have these great days. But then even where the days go off the tracks that where the manager might be a reason for that or how managers can remove some of those barriers, excuse me, and just being more mindful. 

[00:09:45] KS: In my HR experience in all the years I've been doing this, I feel like there are organizations who almost fear getting feedback, and frankly, avoid using surveys or perhaps these types of interview tools. What are they fundamentally misunderstand about feedback and why it's important to get it?

[00:10:03] CR: Feedback has a bad rap. I mean, anytime you hear the word I mean, your heart starts palpitating like, “Oh, I've got some feedback for you.” I mean, someone's going to think like, “Oh, my gosh. What did I screw up on?” Yeah. I think that's where people, organizations, managers, leaders, so many people have missed the true essence of what feedback is. it is a tool, it's data, it's learning, it's not a personal attack. But yet we see companies being fearful of holding these types of sessions, because it's like, “Oh, my gosh, what are we going to hear?” But yet, there's so much excitement in that too, of like, “Oh, my gosh, what are we going to hear?” Because not everything you're going to hear with that is going to be bad or something that you're not going to be able to be actionable on. 

Even when you think about engagement surveys. It gives people the opportunity to share what they're thinking and what they're feeling that then entail or enables the organization to make better choices. That could be easy choices to make or to make changes about. Yet we don't look at it as a tool. I mean, not everyone's going to be writing a bad Yelp review about their employer or their manager. I mean, this can be an opportunity to really celebrate where there are some more wins, but then really to be strategic about where there might be some improvements that need to be made.

[00:11:19] KS: We get that feedback before it ends up on Glassdoor, right?

[00:11:22] CR: Yeah. I know. Glassdoor, I mean, people just go nuts on there. But still, I mean, so much of that could be just gathered internally and easily actionable.

[00:11:32] KS: I was talking to a chief people officer who told me, she spends a lot of her time on Glassdoor and working with the CEO on what the employees are saying. It's definitely something that's changed the way we think about employees having a voice and saying what's on their minds?

[00:11:47] CR: It does. But then I look at though too. People like even – I mentioned Yelp. You go – I don't know a lot of folks who go on Yelp and they have a great experience. I think, the same goes for Glassdoor. I mean, sometimes you read these reviews on organizations and it sounds like, wow, this is going to be the best place to work on the planet. Then the skeptic inside of me thinks, well, is that really true? 

So, from the external viewpoint, looking in, it can be helpful is one data point, but from the internal side of this. I mean, yeah. You could look at Glassdoor and get a feel for what your employees are thinking or feeling. I mean, why even have to look externally, when you could be finding ways to just gather that feedback holistically within the confines of your organization and being more actionable on it to get the feedback that matters from folks who are there and employed now.

[00:12:38] KS: Great point, great reminder. In your work consulting with global leaders and organizations, are there two or three areas are blind spots that stay interviews consistently turn up?

[00:12:51] CR: Yeah, a few things come to mind. A lot of times, I have leaders or companies say we don't want to hold the stay interview, because we know people are going to complain about pay or salary or equity or whatever that looks from a financial element. Yet, oftentimes, that does not come up as a topic. I think, that's been surprising to many, but it also lends the conversation to a different path and people wanting to be more clear on development and purpose. If you think about the different generations that we have in the workforce now, I mean, some people in generations are more geared to having meaning and context and doing work that aligns with their values. That might be why pay doesn't come up or they want to feel they have a path forward, which is so critical for many. 

It's that feeling like, okay, with our stay interview, it's not going to be pay me more that comes up. Sometimes the other elements that come up are pretty simple wins. I mean, some people want a little bit more flexibility with their working hours, which most companies can cater to, or I want to be recognized for my work. Yet, so many managers tend to be not so great at giving feedback, even just positive feedback, like all right, we'll find a way to recognize your employees once a month, whatever that might look like. Even just a few words of thanks for the work or, hey, it's Friday at three, take the rest of the afternoon off. I mean, these are simple things that don't take them a lot of time. They don't take a lot of effort, but they mean a lot at the end of the day.

[00:14:29] KS: How can HR leaders overcome that pushback, right? That they might be getting this is. I don't want to ask these questions. I don't want to do this day interview. I don't want to hear it. How do they actually get the rest of the leadership on board that this is important and we should do it?

[00:14:43] CR: Well, I think, anything I mean, HR always has to lead by example. Even with the HR departments that I've worked with, I've said, “Are you doing these interviews yourself with your own HR teams?” A lot of times the HR leaders are guilty of saying, “No, I'm not doing this.” I think well, how do you expect other business leaders or parts of the organization to also do this, if you're not even making the time to have these, I was going to say, quick sessions, but they're not quick. I mean, they're meaningful, but they can be quick. 

In order to even say, as an example like, “Hey, I'm an HR, I'm an HR leader, I've got people in my own team. I don't want to lose. This was what my own learnings were from when I held the stay interview. Being even able to tell that story is so key of the step of encouragement, but even getting others to start to participate, to use them as examples to say like, “I've done it, and here are three other folks across the business, who are respected who have done this.” Hey, let's hear a testimonial from them about what they learned and what the process was like to get that peer pressure element involved.

[00:15:53] KS: So switching gears to your powerful new book, The Leadership Decision: Decide to Lead Today, you make the case that anyone at any time can become a leader. I'd argue that most people do not feel that way themselves. They might have imposter syndrome or for whatever reason, don't feel they are born to be a leader. What do we intrinsically misunderstand about leadership? Why do so many people shy away from leading?

[00:16:18] CR: Their great questions. When I first started studying leadership, I thought, why am I wasting my time doing this? Because obviously, leaders are born and considering some of the theories there like, “Oh, well, you're either born a great leader or you are not, and you're going to be damned to being a follower for the rest of your life.” But then once I started studying and understanding leadership more it really became more apparent to me that anyone can be a leader. It's going to look different, depending on the individual and the circumstance. But it's not simply limited to the corporate world and getting some title there. 

I mean, we see leaders even this week, as we record this, we see the COP26 event going on. I mean, Greta Thunberg is been one person that you see who's young and finding ways to leave with her own environmental pursuits. Yet, you see people who are 18, 19, 20 years old, dropping out of college to pursue apps or startups, because they see a need and a cause to do that. So it's not simply allotted to 40 year old white men in a VP position within a corporate setting. 

I think, that's where, even now, I'm surprised that leadership has still got that stigma, and that people shy away from it, when we all can look into our lives and think about like, “Okay, I may not have a formal title at work, that doesn't mean that I can't find ways to lead with what I do each and every day.” Or look outside of work about where I can lead in the community or lead where I can see a special interest group. That's where I think we've lost sight of what management, excuse me, what leadership is and really begin to model it more with the concept of management. Like it's got to be at work, and it's got to be a title. It's got to be a pay grade, which it's not. It varies from person to person.

[00:18:19] KS: Right. The whole – what I feel like you're talking a bit about is people confusing leadership with people management, and being a people manager. We know how hard both of those things can be. I say a lot to people who asked me, the only people I know who are actively looking to be people managers are people who don't currently lead people today, right? Because the ones that do it, know how hard it is how time consuming it is. But I don't hear you saying that leadership and people management are the same thing. You're saying be a leader in your way in a way that's authentic to you, that doesn't have anything to do with managing people.

[00:18:55] CR: True. I think that's where you see some quotes from these leadership experts, that say, “Well, in order to lead, you have to have a follower.” I think, well, all right, to a certain extent, I guess that makes sense that you want people to be bought into your vision or your ideas, but you don't necessarily need to have a team of folks who are devised under you within a corporate chart either that makes you a leader, because I've seen some pretty crappy people with lots of hundreds, if not one or two people under them, that do a pretty miserable job at leadership. 

I think, why do we even glorify them as leaders when they're just people managers? I do think there's an element of people will notice when they see someone leading, whether they have folks under them formally or not, because people can see when someone has vision or takes initiative or is consistent in their approach. I think, those are commonalities that we can agree on, make a leader, a leader regardless of what a formal title might say. They are who they are.

[00:19:59] KS: Or what the org chart shows, right? Because we know there are a lot of organizations have complex structures, matrix structures. I think, some of the most successful leaders are those that learn how to influence the actions of others that don't report to them, right?

[00:20:13] CR: 100 percent. 

[00:20:13] KS: To show that vision and show that leadership. There's this interesting conundrum that we're in right now, right? Employees are looking for leadership, precisely as engagement is taking a hit. I don't know if you've ever seen or read anything about the Edelman Trust Barometer. But their recent data confirms that employees are looking to their leaders and the organizations where they work to be their trusted source of truth on key societal issues. That's more than the media, more than government and not for profits. They're looking for their companies and their leaders to be that trusted source of truth. 

So what can organizations do to encourage their leaders in training, if you will or team members who could be leaders to step up and be those leaders, even while we're in this remote or hybrid work environment?

[00:21:00] CR: That's where there's a whole element of culture, because I've seen so many companies say, “Hey, we want our people to be leaders.” Then as soon as somebody starts to take initiative or work outside the box, or go rogue, if you will their pockets slapped in being the outlier. Then I think about it, well, how do we sit back and say, we want people to be leaders and then punish that behavior? Now that might be obvious to an outsider or it might be obvious to the person who's now nursing their pod.

That said, I think, it takes an element that in going back to your point about engagement survey data, of trying to understand, what's the perspective of our culture and giving people the freedom or the initiative to lead within their respective roles even if that means thinking outside the box. But that said, I do feel that if employees at a company are feeling like they're trying to lead, and they cannot lead, because of the culture or rules, or their manager, or whatever that might look like and they feel like that's beginning to stifle their own light or ability, then that can be a key scientific to move on and going back to our earlier points about purpose and vision and really having those reflection points with a great resignation can really be a telltale sign. 

I do think organizations have a level of responsibility to look internally to say like, are we creating a culture and conditions where people can lead and lead outside of defined roles, but then it's also the employees responsibility to say like, “Hey, if I'm trying to lead, and I'm constantly being told, no, is that a sign for me to move on to a place where I can lead in line with my purpose and vision and values to feel a level of fulfillment that I may not be feeling at the moment?”

[00:22:52] KS: On that point around pay and titles and promotions. One of the things we do know historically is that women tend to take on leadership roles, but don't always get those accompanying rewards that men might get when they start to become leaders. What are some steps that women can take to walk the line, take on those responsibilities, become the leader that they clearly can be want to be, but also be sure they're not being taken advantage of by the organization, and they are being properly rewarded, recognized etc.?

[00:23:22] CR: It's a great question. I'll pick on myself a bit more with this. I think, even earlier in my career, I started out in marketing way before I got into leadership development. I used to think that by saying yes to everything and by doing all the work, whether it was the nitty-gritty work or the strategic work that the more I was doing, the more it would demonstrate my value. Then year after year would go by and it would be like, “Oh, well, we were going to promote you, but then had a change of heart.” But I could never get that clear feedback on why I didn't get the promotion, especially when I was feeling so frustrated and undervalued when I was doing so much work. 

Then you would see your other peers get promoted and just feel this level of frustration. I think over time, it occurred to me that it's not simply doing all the work and saying yes, all the time. It's the matter of doing the right things and making sure that the right people see those right things in order to better position yourself. That said, I mean, that's no easy lesson to learn. I mean, that's been decades worth of working to get to that. But I think where women can avoid the mistakes that I've made historically is, get feedback. This is where going back to our earlier points, don't be scared of it. 

If you feel you're doing all the work and you're not getting the recognition you need, pay or title or whatever that looks like to you. It's time to start getting feedback about how people are perceiving you and your leadership brand and where you can make slight changes to better position yourself to get what you want. But when it comes down to pay, I mean, I read this book once, probably coming off of grad school. I don't know if it's published anymore, but it was called Rethinking Work. I don't remember the author's name, but the gentleman talked about, you should always be asking people, who you are peers with, how much they make?

At first, I thought like, oh, gosh I don't know if I could do that. But then I was working in marketing, and a bunch of my peers began to exit the organization. I started to think, well, what if I get to lose I'm just going to huddle these people in the hallway and see if they’ll tell me how much money they were making, and they did. I was shocked. I was like, I don't mean – and you know, I was trying to be so polite about it. I mean, it's probably 25. I don't mean to be rude, but I'd love to know how much you make. They were like, “Yeah. We're making whatever.” I was finding out that some of them, same level experience, graduated college the same years are making $6,000 to $10,000, more than what I was. 

I thought, on top of doing all the work and not getting the feedback, I needed to better position myself, like these people are making more than what I am. So once I had that knowledge, I threw it in my boss's face saying, “Hey, why are these people making so much more than I am, when I am doing X, Y and Z?” He couldn't come back at me on it, because I have the data. I did get a pretty significant pay raise. It was retroactive and ended up working to my benefit. But I thought, God, I never want to be put in that situation again, where I'm scared to ask.

[00:26:34] KS: Well, good for you, good for you for advocating for yourself, because there's nobody better positioned to advocate for you than you, right? When you're armed with the data, great things can happen. You sharing your personal story reminded me of a time when I didn't get a promotion that I thought I was ready for and I thought I should get. I got some really great advice from a mentor and a sponsor of mine who's – because I was like, look, I hit every metric, I'd met every goal, I did everything I was asked to do. I've been a leader, what happened? 

The response I got was, you need to work smarter, not harder. We spent some time talking about what that meant. It really came down to, I did have a good brand. I was known, but it was in a very small circle. It wasn't necessarily in the broader circle that I needed to be known in, to get that promotion when the people that were sitting in that room when those decisions were made. 60 percent of them had heard of me, but had never met me, right? Or something like that. It really was a lesson for me around, how to work smarter and not work harder. 

Nobody was asking me to work 10 more hours a day or 30 more hours a week, they were just asking me to be smarter about, how I was building my brand? That really does lead me into my next question for you where you talked about building a leadership brand or having a brand. So beyond the title or even your LinkedIn profile, what are some pieces of advice you can give us on how to build a leadership brand?

[00:28:00] CR: One of the assignments that I have my MBA students do, is to first define what a brand means to them. Is a brand a reputation or is a something more? I think, that can be a first place for people to start thinking about what is this concept or term really mean to me? From that, I have them challenge themselves to think about like, “Okay, well, if you've just defined a brand as X, what's your brand?” Now, that they've done that. How do that you are living in line with your brand and I have them write a story about a time that they lived that brand. 

Couple weeks later, more into the course, I asked them to go and get feedback. Do people resonate and define you the way that you define you? That brand reputation is going to stay with you far longer than any job title that you may have for a period of time at an organization. If people are not in line with how you view yourself, you've got some work to do. I think, while I use that from an academic standpoint, I still think there's some validity there from the corporate or even leadership standpoint and saying, this is who I want – how I want to be known. This is how I'm going to get feedback on that. 

In getting that feedback too, trying to communicate back to people, how you are acting on the feedback to strengthen your brand or where you might need their feedback ongoing in order to bring them into your journey and to build relationships as you do so. While that might be a skill set or mindset that can be difficult to do, it does show to folks your level of initiative and conscientiousness and wanting to be known as a leader and wanting to be active in improving yourself as a leader on a regular basis. I tend to see some pretty great folks who I've worked with over my career, who I really define as leaders, do that and do that very well. 

[00:30:02] KS: Reflecting on what you hear from your students, as a reminder to our listeners, you're a lecturer at the University of Massachusetts Lowell, where you're teaching these courses on leadership. What should managers know about helping Gen Zers make the leadership decision, once they join the workforce?

[00:30:20] CR: That's where I see managers make some mistakes. I'll tell you why. I had a recent young person, I don't know if she was probably Gen Z or millennial, but she's right probably on the cusp. Her manager felt like, all right, well, the next step for her and her career is to be a people manager. She's going to start leading people, got to lead people, got to lead people. That's the next natural step, really smart, driven, young lady, but she had no interest in managing people. She ended up quitting the organization. 

Then they sat back and thought, why did she quit, we were going to give her all these opportunities to be a people manager. She didn't want to do that and felt like she was getting so pressured into doing something she didn't want to do, she just threw her hands up and left to get a job where she could focus her skill sets on becoming more of a an SMA than a people manager, because that's just what is intriguing her now. 

I think, this is where managers tend to get this wrong and thinking like, “Okay, if I have someone on my team who's young and ambitious and hungry and is demonstrating leadership skills, that we should start putting them into a people manager role.” Yet, as we talked about earlier, Leadership isn't simply about leading people. I mean, it can be the element of thought leadership, too. 

Even for leaders of younger employees to say, what are you looking for? What do you want? I mean, what sorts of decisions do you want to be making about your career when it comes to leadership? Letting them tell you what they want, and not you telling them what you want them to be, is so critical. I think, that's where I'm seeing a lot of leaders get it wrong when managing different generations, because they just think everyone wants to be a people manager. That's not for everybody. Let’s not force it.

[00:32:16] KS: Right, that's why I think progressive organizations that get this, they build those technical tracks, right? Where people can progress in the organization, get to those more senior levels, get the pay and recognition they want on these technical tracks, rather than these leadership tracks. 

[00:32:31] CR: True. It's great to see that coming with more organizations and you having those technological fellow roles or whatever that might look like, I mean, that is so influential and motivating, inspiring. Yet, I think some companies are in the habit or not habit, but starting to do that, like you said and some companies aren't even there yet and still are stuck in that mindset like, they got to lead, they got to lead formally. Give them a team.

[00:32:57] KS: You've given us so much wisdom and tactical strategies today. I can't thank you enough for joining us, Catherine. I really appreciate it. I think, this has been a great discussion.

[00:33:05] CR: Thank you. I've been thrilled to be here. I'm hoping that something I said helps someone, somehow.

[00:33:11] KS: I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will and for our listeners. If you want to learn more about how you can make the decision to become a leader. Get your copy of Catherine's new book, The Leadership Decision: Decide to Lead Today on Amazon right now. If your organization needs help developing leaders internally and keeping top talent with stay interviews, head over to theleadershipdecision.com. Be sure to follow Catherine on LinkedIn @catherinerymsha. Be sure to subscribe to the HR Huddle Podcast and tune in weekly to our other shows, Spilling The Tea On HR Tech with Stacey Harris and Per My Last Email, where we dig into what's broken in diversity, equity, and inclusion with Pam Jeffords. We'll see you in our HR Huddle.

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